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    04 Aug 2011: Hungaroring

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    MikaRaymond
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    Re: 04 Aug 2011: Hungaroring

    Post by MikaRaymond on Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:21 pm

    thats the way ive felt for a while and you know that andrea. if its too much work and overtime to change the results then why are the rules there in the first place? dont bother having them there if nothing is going to be done about it, and tell us so we understand that.

    you ask us to report driver incidents to try and keep the racing as clean and fair as possible. i have emailed you multiple times complaining about zardin and blue flags. have you done anything about it? have you done anything about franky blocking me at silverstone? these are the things that make me think RSR are favoured, especially when you say it "wasnt fankys day". with due respect, i dont care if hes having a good or bad day, but the fact he blocked me for a full lap and got away with it is unfair.

    anyway this is getting out of hand. you know im here to enjoy myself and help out with various things and i enjoy racing with all the guys, but my request is plain and simple:

    did gek use extra track to gain an advantage in qualifying when the rules say otherwise?
    yes
    so, he should be punished with -1 point.

    its not much to ask is it?

    that is all i have to say on this matter. also gek, i have no idea about the pit crash you talk about? :s

    i wait for your reply.


    Last edited by MikaRaymond on Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

    M Waechter
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    Re: 04 Aug 2011: Hungaroring

    Post by M Waechter on Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:42 pm

    just a note in general until there will be a long discussion again, if we don't stop:
    It's just a game we cannot manage everything 100% perfeclty. RSR managers keep in mind Mika is a younger boy, he just get's maybe a bit more impulsive in his comments (like it was maybe in his 2nd last one now), I think that's normal and 'right', I think he is calmed down now again, like most of all the time before.

    Just a single small criticism I have to the organisatiors: It is the fact that there are no penalties speaken out, though it is stated clearly in the rules.. .
    In the last season of GPC there was a much more clear treatment when someone distracting rules, there were more penalties spoken out.. (but that was also because Jaap had kind of slightly more or better
    software opportiunities and sparetime back then to do such things more easily back that time I guess).
    -But I fully understand this, when it is, as you organizers say, difficult to change results in general, things can get even more complicated then I know, so I understand this things.


    Last edited by M Waechter on Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: 04 Aug 2011: Hungaroring

    Post by f.gek on Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:24 pm

    Sono d'accordo sulla penalizzazione, cosi da oggi sara tutto piu facile da parte deigli organizzatori prendere decisioni. chi non segue le regole deve essere penalizzato.

    Io dico -1 punto per non aver diritto alla pole position e - 5 punti per aver causato un incidente alla prima curva in red zone

    è piu divertente anche per me correre a spa con un po di pensieri in piu

    per me la discussione puo aver fine qui.



    I agree on the penalty, so now everything will be easier to make decisions by deigli organizers. who do not follow the rules should be penalized.
    I say -1 point for not having the right pole and - 5 points for causing an accident at the first corner in the red zone.

    is more fun for me to run a spa with a bit of thought in more


    for me the discussion can end here.


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    MikaRaymond
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    Re: 04 Aug 2011: Hungaroring

    Post by MikaRaymond on Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:24 pm

    f.gek wrote:I say -1 point for not having the right pole and - 5 points for causing an accident at the first corner in the red zone.
    if you look at the replay, i had nothing to do with the accident at t1 - i backed off early.

    or if youre talking about melbourne (which happened in march), i got -5 points for that race and a drive through penalty which cost me the championship.

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    Re: 04 Aug 2011: Hungaroring

    Post by f.gek on Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:25 am

    mi hai fatto fare un sacco di lavoro

    you made me do a lot of work:lol!:

    la regola del campionato è questa descritta qui sotto. Queste sono le immagini alle curve delle due macchine nel probabile miglior giro , ma piu o meno sono sempre cosi.
    Io credo che si commentano da sole, mika le fa tutte fuori dalla regola , io solo alcune.




    the rule of this league is described below. These are the images of the curves in the two cars probably best around, but more or less always the case.
    I think that speak for themselves, mika makes them all out by the rule, I just a few.



    <p>



    Not Valid: the car is beyond the with line




    Not Valid: internal kerb extension: the car is beyond the with kerb (all on the kerb extension)













    Entrare ai pitbox e nella corsia di decellerazione, cercare di sorpassare credo che non sia una cosa corretta.In questo caso tu hai colpito il muro e non l'altro pilota, ma potevi sicuramente compromettere la sua gara e in full mode la paghi per tanti minuti


    Enter the pitbox and deceleration lane, try to overtake believe it is not something corretta.In this case you have not hit the wall and the other driver, but you could definitely affect his race and in full mode the pay for many minutes



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    Re: 04 Aug 2011: Hungaroring

    Post by M Waechter on Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:46 am

    @Gek: Mika is nowhere off track, he is always with two tires on the curb and that is valid regarding the rules! ("Where a kerb extension is present, the kerb i is considered part of the track.")
    Of course the only exception, where he is off track, is the pic. of t4 where he is a little bit beside the curb.

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    Re: 04 Aug 2011: Hungaroring

    Post by f.gek on Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:56 am

    erba sintetica intorno a tutto il tracciato non penso si possa considerare estensione del cordolo.
    synthetic grass all around the track I do not think it can be considered extensions of the curb.


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    Re: 04 Aug 2011: Hungaroring

    Post by M Waechter on Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:59 am

    sure it is (I always thought), what else could be an extension ? As long as there is something green, grey or whatever beside the curb (extension) and no natural grass or gravel, the curb is regarded as part of the track.
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    Andrea Lojelo
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    Re: 04 Aug 2011: Hungaroring

    Post by Andrea Lojelo on Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:51 am

    I just came back home, and I'm not happy to see that the this useless discussions still goes on.

    The green part in the pictures can be considered kerb extension in my view, as I said before. I'm not sure if it looks like synthetic grass (as in real life) or cement, but in any case I wrote before the race that you could go over it.
    Andrea Lojelo wrote: it's fine to go over the green curb extension, but keeping at least 2 wheels on the curb.

    As usual, as long as people will not try to take those rules at their limit, it's fine for us.

    I want to put some emphasis on my last sentence: the meaning is that we want people to run with common rules, in a way that we have all the same mind set. Errors can happen, because after all, none of us is a machine. Sometimes it isn't even easy from the car to understand how wide you are. After all we don't do prequalifications, in which you can check the validity of each lap.

    Don't forget that those 2 guys are running almost 2 or more seconds faster than anyone else on this track. This means being always really at the limit!
    Great respect for both of you for this.

    Saying that, at least looking at the images (taken not from the driver replay, but from someone else replay, that could give a slightly different view), for sure gek is off track in T4 and T11, and mika in T4.

    I hope we will find some time to discuss with the team about it in the next days.

    I found a bit bizarre that we all (you included) need to spend so much energy and time for just 1 point, when with a victory you could take 30!
    I understand it's a matter of principles, and for this reason we will take a decision.


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    Re: 04 Aug 2011: Hungaroring

    Post by MikaRaymond on Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:52 am

    Valid: internal kerb estension: the car touches the kerb
    read the rules...

    i see absolutely no problem with my lines apart from t4, where im actually closer to the line than you.
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    davide zardin
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    Re: 04 Aug 2011: Hungaroring

    Post by davide zardin on Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:30 am

    mi spiace che mika e gek siano sempre a ferri corti ma in fondo li capisco perchè sono in lotta per il primo posto della classifica, però vorrei costatare che io sono partito in 13° in griglia e non so cosa sia successo in t1 ma poi al primo passaggio sono passato 5° alla fine non avevo passo non avevo set up sono giunto 11° e sono contento ( questa è stata la mia gara). la cosa su ciu vorrei spostare l'attenzione è sull'aggressività che anno tutti i più veloci su noi più lenti (vedi manovra di mika ai box) ribadisco che noi abbiamo il dovere di farvi passare il prima possibile ma non di volatilizzarci dalla pista. mi acuro che presto torni il fullmode; questa libertà di fare esc go to box è dannosa per chi non commette errori in t1 ma non ha il passo di chi sta davanti, veniamo regolarmente ripresi e se non ci spostiamo veniamo tamponati e io ne so qualcosa
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    giancarlo graziano
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    Re: 04 Aug 2011: Hungaroring

    Post by giancarlo graziano on Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:40 pm

    vero le gare risultano sfalsate...e noi lenti oltre che essere penalizzati riceviamo imprecazioni per nn essere volati da un lato,.
    Per questo in radiator prima dei bugs della beta tutte le gare ufficiali erano in full mode..
    da quanto stiamo constatando con la release candidate......in full ci sono ancora un po di problemi.....pultroppo...
    speriamo di riuscire ad usarlo in futuro..

    PS
    per quest champ abbiamo lasciato cadere le rules e penalty , troppi casini e bugs..
    ma ora se la RC porta i risultati dovuti si puo definire di nuovo La lista rules...
    abbiamo anche provato in passato senza full mode ma con la regola che nn si possa usare esc...oppure vieni penalizzato
    funziona !!!! anche senza il full le gare si possono avvicinare al reale..senza avere come pitcrew il mago Mister Esc
    speriamo Rolling Eyes



    M Waechter
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    Re: 04 Aug 2011: Hungaroring

    Post by M Waechter on Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:06 pm

    I watched the whole replay again and want to apologize a bit criticising Gek as I said he (and other) took it -being off track in t4 and t11- as their limit in the race, that was a wrong assumption I made.
    He was only in a few laps beside t4 and that was just during the phase after he crashed himself in t4 and had to go to pits again for repair (did not know that before) in the first few laps and had to catch up from
    behind again, after that he was clean in his racing-lines (except t11 a few times, but there other guys pushed beyond too).

    -Regarding the qualy laps this is of course an another case, maybe he pushed beyond in t4 too much than allowed.
    But anyway let's not be too pedantic now again and again.. Wink.-
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    Andrea Lojelo
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    Re: 04 Aug 2011: Hungaroring

    Post by Andrea Lojelo on Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:50 pm

    We decided to keep results the way they are. Just as we did in the past we consider problems on the software/tracks just as technical problems.

    About the fact that Fulvio was out of track during his qualification lap, we decided not to penalize him.
    The reason is simple: we have rules, and we want to have drivers to stick to it. Rules are there to have a common understanding of what is allowed and what is not.
    We assume drivers are trying their best to stick to it, but sometimes it's possible that, driving to the limit, for a mistake you could go off track.
    Unless it's clear that the driver does it on purpouse we will not penalize him.
    Something different is if you try to get your best lap completely cutting a chicane, for example.

    Saying that, I hope everyone will take my words in the right way: not as a open door to try to get even more over the limit, but as a common sense rule.

    We don't want to have drivers fighting on the forum, creating tentions and misuderstanding. We prefer to see drivers fighting on track, with fair play.


    We decided to disqualify Ferran Sanson (a.k.a. Albert McSaltens), from the the 2 races he took part in our championship. Results are updated accordingly.


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    Re: 04 Aug 2011: Hungaroring

    Post by MikaRaymond on Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:35 pm

    rules are made to stick to and when people dont abide by those rules, they get punished. you had absolutely no problem penalizing me 5 points in australia and DQ'ing me in suzuka for leaving the box before the 10 minute peroid was up, so how is this different to any of those situations? he broke the rules and doesnt get a punishment. watch the whole of qualy - he goes over the same line EVERY lap.

    i hope people can now see my point because this is totally unfair. you had no problem DQ'ing ferran even though you clearly said "its a lot of work changing the results". you have also said nothing about the franky report so i take that as a no too.

    lets leave it at that.
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    Re: 04 Aug 2011: Hungaroring

    Post by Andrea Lojelo on Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:50 pm

    We never penalized anyone for a lap in qualifications. We think that since we do live qualifications with a race that follows makes no sense check qualification laps, unless a driver cut a chicane to gain 2 seconds!

    About the other drivers reports you submitted, I'll go through them in the following days.


    The fact of being unfair, I think is not true, since once we decided to do the same when it was myself loosing 1 lap and a lot of positions.
    In that case we decided for the solution that we thought was simpler, especially for not having a case for the future.


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    Re: 04 Aug 2011: Hungaroring

    Post by MikaRaymond on Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:53 pm

    the rules need to be re-written then because clearly those images represent nothing in terms of punishments. it says youre not allowed to cross the line, then suddenly we find out you dont penalize a driver because he did.

    they need changing as soon as possible.

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    Re: 04 Aug 2011: Hungaroring

    Post by f.gek on Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:52 pm

    Nessun problema a ricevere la penalizzazione di un punto. Se questo permette di terminare questa discussione chiedo che sia applicata.

    sarò primo anche in questo mika... nella penalizzazione oltre che nel campionato lol!



    No problem to receive the penalty of a point. If this can end this discussion by asking to be applied.

    I'll be the first to take this punishment ...Besides being the first well in the championship

    http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/E7D3276BF288173BC12578C0004A901D/$FILE/20



    11_F1_SPORTING_REGULATIONS_30-06-2011.pdf
    2011 FORMULA ONE SPORTING REGULATIONS

    20.3 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the track edges
    are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
    A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.
    Should a car leave the track for any reason the driver may rejoin. However, this may only be done when it
    is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage.


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    Re: 04 Aug 2011: Hungaroring

    Post by MikaRaymond on Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:36 pm

    since when does rsr use the real f1 sporting regulations? youre trying to prove your point with a set of rules that doesnt even apply to this championship?

    and (not like it matters), i was actually the first one to take a punishment, accepting a DQ in suzuka last year.

    god knows why youre trying to carry on this conversation gek, the decision was made hours ago.

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