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    Mugello WIP: bugs

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    Andrea Lojelo
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    Mugello WIP: bugs

    Post by Andrea Lojelo on Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:09 am

    We are working hard to improve our Mugello day by day, but every release could lead to new bugs.

    Please help us to find them all. If you find any bug please drop a line here, so we can fix it in the next release.

    Thank you for your support.


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    Re: Mugello WIP: bugs

    Post by Andrea Lojelo on Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:17 am

    I'm moving here some of the comments on the other topic. Let's try to keep things organized.

    Sergey Moskovkin wrote:Hey guys, thank you very much for ability to take a part in your test race at Mugello track Smile

    Here is some feedback from me:









    Also track seems to be heavy for video card - even my GT9800 had some troubles to get good FPS (until I turned off supersampling in nVidia panel).

    Is the short version of Mugello ready to use? Cause I can't complete a lap there now. I can do it now


    M Carey wrote:Noticed the same stuff. Had fairly low FPS as well (Min 13, Max 122, Avg 84) so couldn’t race online but it’s good to see your scratch build has the same lovely flow as other versions of Mugello


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    Re: Mugello WIP: bugs

    Post by Andrea Lojelo on Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:46 am

    Sergey, thanks for your feedback.

    1-3-4+video:
    Could you show us your video configuration settings on nk? post a screenshot, please.

    We haven't experienced any flashing textures in the latest release, so it might be something related to some particular video settings.
    I can clearly see the problem in your video also.

    It should not be too complex to fix this with the KofLite. I will try to do a small tutorial, so, if you want, you can do some test for us and fix the problem before the next release.


    2:
    We noticed the weird blue lines just after Correntaio, but you can clearly see it even in your video when you are inside of the box.
    It's caused by the transparent glasses on the top of the pit walls. It was working fine in the previous release, so we will use the previous settings to fix it.


    FPS problem:
    can you add some more details about your pc? is it a new one or not? can you try to have few laps on nkpro beta3 at Mugello and tell us if you have similar FPS?

    We are using High Definition textures. Our texture package is 308 MB at the moment. Aosta, for example is only 54 MB, Aviano 35, just to give you an example.
    Of course we will still work a lot on that, and some of the textures are not optimized or far from being final!

    I think it's a miracle that we can have FPS at 150+ with that level of detail already in this stage of the development.
    Things will be improved without any doubt before the final release, that's why your input are extremely valuable.

    How much Ram do you have on your video card?
    I might say something totally wrong, but I think that nK loads in memory those textures at the beginning, so if your video card doesn't have enough RAM you might have problems.

    Try to use a program to lower the resolution of the textures on the texture folder.

    We will try to see on our side, if we can do something about it also.


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    Sergey Moskovkin
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    Re: Mugello WIP: bugs

    Post by Sergey Moskovkin on Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:24 am

    Lets see...

    My PC configuration:

    Hardware:
    Inter Core2Duo E8400 3.00Ghz
    4Gb System RAM
    Gainward 9800GT Green Edition 1Gb RAM (this is a bit underclocked version: graphics clock is set to 550Mhz against stock nVidia 600Mhz)
    Monitor: SyncMaster P2350
    Resolution: 1920x1080@50Hz

    Software:
    Windows 7 Home Premium x86
    nVidia drivers version 197.45
    netKar PRO 1.1 Final

    FPS problem:

    I have low FPS only when I use Antialiacing Transparency set to Supersampling (it's off by default in nVidia control panel), so a lot of objects eats a lot of performance with such settings. After I've turned it off - all back to normal and I've got solid 50FPS (at least alone, cause that race was my first one on this track and I couldn't fight in front or middle of traffic). In NKP I have all graphix settings to Max and vSync is on.



    So, you clearly can see that FPS wasn't a big problem in my case, but I really don't know what could be wrong with ATI (M Carey case). Anyway seems to be a version with textures in normal resolution (less then HD at least) may be a good idea


    Thank you for your time guys


    Last edited by Sergey Moskovkin on Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:30 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : screenshot added)
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    Albert McSaltens
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    Re: Mugello WIP: bugs

    Post by Albert McSaltens on Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:24 am

    Sergey Moskovkin wrote:Lets see...

    My PC configuration:

    Hardware:
    Inter Core2Duo E8400 3.00Ghz
    4Gb System RAM
    Gainward 9800GT Green Edition 1Gb RAM (this is a bit underclocked version: graphics clock is set to 550Mhz against stock nVidia 600Mhz)
    Monitor: SyncMaster P2350
    Resolution: 1920x1080@50Hz

    Software:
    Windows 7 Home Premium x86
    nVidia drivers version 197.45
    netKar PRO 1.1 Final

    FPS problem:

    I have low FPS only when I use Antialiacing Transparency set to Supersampling (it's off by default in nVidia control panel), so a lot of objects eats a lot of performance with such settings. After I've turned it off - all back to normal and I've got solid 50FPS (at least alone, cause that race was my first one on this track and I couldn't fight in front or middle of traffic). In NKP I have all graphix settings to Max and vSync is on.



    So, you clearly can see that FPS wasn't a big problem in my case, but I really don't know what could be wrong with ATI (M Carey case). Anyway seems to be a version with textures in normal resolution (less then HD at least) may be a good idea


    Thank you for your time guys
    hi, well sergey watching your specs i think you run too much resolution for that graphics card and cpu.
    i have similar rig but with a quad core, same ram, and a nvidia 9500gt 512mgb. it runs smooth but i use 1280*720 no rpoblems with fps.
    i think you shouls try to lower the resolution. and also i think you should try windows 64bit because we all know that 32bit only uses 3 gb of ram despite the trick microsoft do to make win show 4gb, it is not using them also counting you have a 1gb ram card your ram memory drops to 2gb if im not wrong.
    if you swith to 64bit win you will have effectifly 4 gb, so you should experience a 1gb ram boost

    if anyone knows better than me and im wrong please correct me
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    laurent resende
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    Re: Mugello WIP: bugs

    Post by laurent resende on Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:43 am

    hi
    something very important to know the vertical synchronization limits the number of FPS
    at 60 because the image is recalculated many more times by the GPU, it improves the quality of the image at the expense of FPS, and this provided a small video card on a large,
    It is therefore recommended as the deactivated in the config panel of the card in the parameters of the simulation and other games
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    Re: Mugello WIP: bugs

    Post by Sergey Moskovkin on Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:40 pm

    Thank you for replies guys


    @Albert McSaltens

    Such resolution isn't a big problem for 9800GT, because it has four times more power then 9500GT. I have no problem with iRacing at 1920x1080@50Hz at all - it eats a lot of performance.

    And at the moment I don't have programs which require to address more then 3.25Gb, so 64 bit a bit useless for me


    @laurent resende

    Yeah, vSync eats some, but I just hate tearing and that's why I use 50Hz instead of 60Hz. As I described above my problem was Supersampling option. Now it's gone - I even can record a movie by Fraps
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    Albert McSaltens
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    Re: Mugello WIP: bugs

    Post by Albert McSaltens on Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:49 pm

    Sergey Moskovkin wrote:Thank you for replies guys


    @Albert McSaltens

    Such resolution isn't a big problem for 9800GT, because it has four times more power then 9500GT. I have no problem with iRacing at 1920x1080@50Hz at all - it eats a lot of performance.

    And at the moment I don't have programs which require to address more then 3.25Gb, so 64 bit a bit useless for me


    @laurent resende

    Yeah, vSync eats some, but I just hate tearing and that's why I use 50Hz instead of 60Hz. As I described above my problem was Supersampling option. Now it's gone - I even can record a movie by Fraps
    well but if you use 32 bit you have 3,25 but you use of those 3,25gb one for graphics, so you end up with 2,25 gb for windows resources and programs. if im not wrong using 64bit then you would have more memory for programs.
    .but i could be wrong because im not sure if the graphics card uses his own ram and let the system ram intact someone could explain that?
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    Re: Mugello WIP: bugs

    Post by Sergey Moskovkin on Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:54 pm

    Albert McSaltens wrote:
    well but if you use 32 bit you have 3,25 but you use of those 3,25gb one for graphics, so you end up with 2,25 gb for windows resources and programs. if im not wrong using 64bit then you would have more memory for programs.
    .but i could be wrong because im not sure if the graphics card uses his own ram and let the system ram intact someone could explain that?

    As far as I know video card and other stuff uses exactly the rest of my 4Gb RAM - 0.75Gb, which I can't use with x86 system. Video card has the own RAM, and only if it's integrated it uses system memory.
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    Re: Mugello WIP: bugs

    Post by Albert McSaltens on Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:56 pm

    Sergey Moskovkin wrote:
    Albert McSaltens wrote:
    well but if you use 32 bit you have 3,25 but you use of those 3,25gb one for graphics, so you end up with 2,25 gb for windows resources and programs. if im not wrong using 64bit then you would have more memory for programs.
    .but i could be wrong because im not sure if the graphics card uses his own ram and let the system ram intact someone could explain that?

    As far as I know graphix card and other stuff uses exactly the rest of my 4Gb RAM - 0.75Gb, which I can't use with x86 system.

    thats not the case in a 32 bit os all you can use is 3,25 the other 0,75 mb of ram are just like if you did not have it. thats why using 64 bit is better when you have installed 4gb ram , that's why i suggested it
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    Re: Mugello WIP: bugs

    Post by Andrea Lojelo on Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:04 pm

    What is your avg FPS on Mugello and on other tracks using the same settings? difficult to do comparisons between games. nKPRO and iRacing uses completely different engines.

    Our track is the only one using the new .kto format, all others are using the .nko. There are still some bugs on this format (i.e. external cameras not working, progress bar not working...) so it might be that some of the problems are coming from there also.

    Can you run with the same configuration with v1.1 and beta3?


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    Re: Mugello WIP: bugs

    Post by M Carey on Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:41 pm

    Just re-installed beta 3, and the results where pretty similar (Min 19, Max 131, Avg 86). This is all on default settings, with my pathetic student laptop; Intel Core 2 Duo T5800 @ 2GHz, 3GB RAM and ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3470 256MB. I think it might just be one of the tracks I’ll struggle to run (like Monaco and Aosta), as apposed to a track which has got worse such as Spa from beta 3 to v1.1.
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    Re: Mugello WIP: bugs

    Post by Sergey Moskovkin on Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:21 pm

    Here are FPS results (min - average - max):

    Mugello Full

    vSync OFF - Supersampling OFF
    All - Solid 126

    vSync ON - Supersampling OFF
    All - Solid 50

    vSync OFF - Supersampling ON
    Open Wheels: 56 - 70 - 88
    Abath 500: 37 - 44 - 55

    vSync ON - Supersampling ON
    Open Wheels: 37 - 44 - 55
    Abath 500: 25 - 33 - 50


    Aviano Full

    vSync OFF - Supersampling OFF
    All - Solid 126

    vSync ON - Supersampling OFF
    All - Solid 50

    vSync OFF - Supersampling ON
    Open Wheels: Solid 126
    Abath 500: 65 - 70 - 78

    vSync ON - Supersampling ON
    All: Solid 50
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    Re: Mugello WIP: bugs

    Post by Andrea Lojelo on Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:30 pm

    Sergey Moskovkin wrote:Here are FPS results (min - average - max):

    Mugello Full

    vSync OFF - Supersampling OFF
    All - Solid 126

    vSync ON - Supersampling OFF
    All - Solid 50

    vSync OFF - Supersampling ON
    Open Wheels: 56 - 70 - 88
    Abath 500: 37 - 44 - 55

    vSync ON - Supersampling ON
    Open Wheels: 37 - 44 - 55
    Abath 500: 25 - 33 - 50


    Aviano Full

    vSync OFF - Supersampling OFF
    All - Solid 126

    vSync ON - Supersampling OFF
    All - Solid 50

    vSync OFF - Supersampling ON
    Open Wheels: Solid 126
    Abath 500: 65 - 70 - 78

    vSync ON - Supersampling ON
    All: Solid 50
    So everything comparable except the combination vSync OFF - Supersampling ON. Who know why!
    Just for my curiosity, can you see huge differences on the video quality with the vSync OFF - Supersampling OFF and the other options?


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    Re: Mugello WIP: bugs

    Post by laurent resende on Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:45 pm

    actually the super sampling is a large consumer of video memories, it is best to disable the minimize and even, for the visual effects are ontient good image quality with AA 2x
    must know that their own graphics cards manages video memory, and relies for images with lots of physical memory on the Polygon keen for a store and not having to recompute;
    but for small card Albert because it is better to disable the vSync and super samplind adjustment in the control of the video card
    Mugello on I noticed that the use of shaders had been modified, we obtain an image quality a little worse but improves the fluidity is
    I own a gtx 285 on a core2 duo E8500 with 4G corsairet I have a 26 inch Iiyama (1920x1200-60htz) but I got 0.81 Mugello other time has an effect ralentisement very light but even when this
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    Re: Mugello WIP: bugs

    Post by Sergey Moskovkin on Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:05 pm

    A little correction: everything comparable except the combination vSync ON - Supersampling ON. And for me was a big surprise that Abath 500 needs a lot more performance then open wheel cars - I don't use it often, cause I'm a Formula 1600 junkie

    I can see the difference indeed - (un)fortunately I have sharp eyes But this isn't a big deal for me, really.

    Here are few examples just for your info...

    with Supersampling antialiaced lines are smoother:


    then without it:



    vSync makes the picture moving smoother without any tearing.

    Anyway I know the solution of my case - just don't use Supersampling.
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    Re: Mugello WIP: bugs

    Post by Andrea Lojelo on Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:21 pm

    Yes, you have sharp eyes Razz
    Without your arrows I wouldn't have noticed the difference at the first glance! Anyway a drop of almost 100 FPS is way too much for a sharper image!

    Thanks a lot for your investigation. If you don't mind I will write your findings on some more forums. I hope this could be helpful for someone else.

    I'm glad you found the correct balance for your pc between performances and quality!
    This demonstrate how important is to spend some time on your own configuration when you have some trouble!


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    Re: Mugello WIP: bugs

    Post by Andrea Lojelo on Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:53 pm

    René Lorig wrote:That is at T1: Some Textures wrong, and lightning "bug" (nearly everywhere on the track)


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    Re: Mugello WIP: bugs

    Post by René Lorig on Tue May 11, 2010 5:21 pm



    Also at T1. (Orange stripes)
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    Re: Mugello WIP: bugs

    Post by Andrea Lojelo on Tue May 11, 2010 5:40 pm

    Hi Rene' the orange stripes are used to align the texture correctly. It will not be in the final version.
    Don't bother anymore about finding bugs in that version. It's ages away from the current build. I don't know when we will release a new beta package to be tested.

    Thanks anyway for your input.


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    Re: Mugello WIP: bugs

    Post by René Lorig on Tue May 11, 2010 5:51 pm

    Oh, okay. I'm using ver 0.8.3 ... so I guess your now at ver. 0.9 or something?
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    Re: Mugello WIP: bugs

    Post by Andrea Lojelo on Tue May 11, 2010 6:20 pm

    we haven't released anymore after the 0.8.3. At the moment the team is working on daily basis on the track refining it and adding details, as showed in the latest screenshots.

    For now we are doing short development cycles doing internal releases even more than once a day. Everyday Mauro and Giovanni are working together(always remotely though, but sharing the same desktop and speaking via skype) to fix and improve the track corner after corner. The guys are doing an excellent work, I've to say, but there is always something new to add or modify.

    I think you will find the track hugely different on the next semi-public beta release. We will keep you posted.

    We always need good, external, eyes to spot new bugs!


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    Re: Mugello WIP: bugs

    Post by laurent resende on Tue May 11, 2010 8:45 pm

    Bravo to all the team Andrea
    Can I afford it I think what is crucial is the feel of the track with drivers, personally I find the version 8.3, more pleasant to fly with a better feeling of Gripp
    through the steering wheel (G25) much higher than the preceding or have had the feeling of driving on ice!
    Guys you continue a remarkable work

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